Famous People You've Never Heard Of
Famous People You've Never Heard Of
Music Hall Darlings - Alison Young talks about Daisy Dormer & Her Sisters
Alison Young is the Secretary of the British Music Hall Society. She ran away from the law to research and write about her family connections with the Music Hall and has uncovered many little gems that she shares with us today.
"Dainty Daisy Dormer" was a Music Hall star. She was also Alison's great great aunt. She and her sisters toured around the UK - and much further afield entertaining audiences in the thousands of music hall theatres that existed in the late 19th/early 20th centuries.
As well as Daisy and Co., Alison talks about the art of Sickert, Degas, Lautrec and others who painted backstage scenes in theatres and music halls and gives an insight into the non-glamorous world of 19th/20th Century showbusiness.
For further info:
Alison's Blog: Music Hall Alice:
https://musichallalice.wordpress.com/
The British Music Hall Society
http://britishmusichallsociety.com/
The British Newspaper Archive:
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
My Old Man, A Personal History of Music Hall
By: John Major
Published by Harper Collins
British Music Hall: an Illustrated History
By: Richard Anthony Baker
Published by: Pen & Sword Books
Music:
"Champagne Charlie" by Alfred Lee & George Leybourne
Played by: James Hall
https://www.jamesahall.co.uk/
"I Wouldn't Leave My Little Hut For You" by Charles Collins & Tom Mellor
Played by : Guy Deardon
ISRC number. GB3GU1200723
Copyright owner Guy Dearden
https://www.theatremusicshop.com/index.html
Episode edited and produced by: Jacob Taylor
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Welcome to Blue Fire's podcast, where we entertain you with tales of famous people you've never heard of. Each week, Steve Lottie or Linda will guide you through the centuries to shine the spotlight once again, on entertainers, that history has forgotten. Join us for drama, interviews and the occasional chat over a bottle of wine, as we discover that the topics of plague, poverty and overnight stardom are not unique to the 21st century.
Lottie:So today' we welcome Alison Young, who is here to talk to us all about the lovely Daisy Dormer. Alison is a bit of an authority on Music Hall. She is secretary of the British Music Hall Society, and she ran away to join the halls, I believe in her misspent youth. So welcome, Alison, tell u s a little bit about you and, what s parked your interest in Music Hall.
Alison:Hi, Lottie. Thanks for asking me to come along and chat to you. Well, I did! I ran away from the law, t o join the Music Hall.
Lottie:Ominous- sounds very ominous.
Alison:For years I was a very respectable solicitor in the City of London. And I think I slogged away at that for about 18 years and, had enough and decided to, yes, runaway to join the Music Hall, not in a performing sense at all, but just in terms of, r esearch, reading and writing about Music Hall and some of my family who were performers.
Lottie:So you were never actually interested in a life upon the wicked stage yourself?
Alison:No, not, not at all. I did have a brief flirtation with school plays, a nd, t h e church youth club pantomime, i n which I played Margaret Thatcher at age 13, but I, would love to have worked in theater, but not as a performer, probably on the production side of things. Not on the stage but behind it would have suited me quite nicely. So it's somewhere in the genes. And part of the reason for becoming a solicitor was the messages, that I got from my family and from my grandmother, Nora, who had been an actress also was"don't go on the stage. It's a te rrib le world. You need to do a job, but somet hin g respectable". So I had a crack at that for a few years and decided that the disrespectable world of theatre was far more interesting
Lottie:That's my girl... So then tell me about this dynasty of Music Hall performers. And actors then, so it's Daisy Dormer, and she had sisters who were also in the business.
Alison:So the biggest star in the family was, somebody who was my great, great aunt, Daisy Dormer. And she was born in Portsmouth and she was one of, three sisters, who went on the Music Hall stage. There were other brothers and sisters who didn't follow the call of the theatre. But Daisy was born in 1883 and it seems that she started, in p antomime, in Portsmouth, probably in some sort of children's troupe and her sisters presumably did the same. And she had a bit of a hit s ong around 1905."I Wouldn't Leave My Little Wooden Hut For You". And that seemed to launch her, career. And you know, she then worked consistently right thro ugh, into the 1920s. And she was occasionally wheeled out in the 1930s and certainly appeared on some early radio programs where they would invite Music Hall old timers on to,chat and sing. Unfortunately, I don't think any of those broadca sts ex ist now. I'd love to hear it. I'd love to hear her voice, her speaking voice.
Speaker 3:Music Plays
Alison:That's Daisy, but she, yeah, she was the biggest star, but, there were her sisters and then the people they married, they were all on the halls in some way or other, not so successful, but just representative of the thousands of people that tried their hand on the music halls, y ou k now, a nd, a nd really slogged and worked hard and traveled constantly. You know, all over the British Is les. And actually also to, ot h er outposts of the British Empire: Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and America. So that was my great-grandmother Violet and her husband, Larry, who was an American who ended up on the British Music Hall rather than the American vaudeville circuit. And, yes, t h ey were, you know, one week they were in Birkenhead the next week they were in South Shields. Then the y we r e in Birmingham, you know, every week, a different town or city probably bumping into friends and family at Crewe r ailway station on a Sunday when they changed trains.
Lottie:I think that there were so many sort of dynasties within the music hall weren't there. And I think that was that not all sort of born out of necessity, really because they didn't have... they were such a transient breed, you know, and all they knew was each other and they would travel around literally together. And the home was whichever digs they were staying in. There was never a permanent base.
Alison:Right. That's right. I think it was quite insular. They, the music Hall folk, kept to themselves, but y es, I think that, you know, my grandmother, Norah, she was the daughter of Larry and Violet. She ended up going on the stage, u m, b ecause I, I'm not really sure that they felt there were many other options. You know, children were appearing often with their parents from quite a young age; Max Wall came from a Music Hall family. And, u m, h e describes in his autobiography Fool on the Hill, which is an excellent read by the way, how he would sort of, you know, hover in the wings with the children of other Music Hall performers and, you know, observe your parents performing. And that was the only life he really knew. You'd be trailed, you know, from on e t heatre to another, pr obably h aving a kip in the theatrical hamper wh ere a l l t he costumes we re,
Lottie:Well there's that song, isn't there, the old Judy Garland song Born in a Trunk. And that was exactly it, it was almost being born backstage and three days later you were being wheeled on
Alison:And there's, there's countless examples of you know, Music Hall performers following that route. You know, following their parents onto the stage. But my grandmother benefited from the financial success of Daisy Dormer because Daisy Dormer paid for her to be educated. And she went to a sort of rather middle-class nice boarding school in Cliftonville in Margate. And the great plan was that Norah would, you know, get an education and do something else, but Norah had other ideas. And, family rumor has it, that she had a place to read English at Cambridge. Now whether there's little bit of romanticism about that, I don't know,
Lottie:I'm choosing to believe it.
Alison:Yes. I ike to believe it as well. And just before she was due to go to university that summer, she had a summer job, a t a London department store and there she was flicking through her pa rents' c opy of the stage when she saw an advertisement for the chorus, for the Palladium pantomime that coming winter. So Off Nora went, auditioned, got t he role and was in the chorus of Aladdin at the Palladium, never went to university. And that was the end of that. And, so th a t's a, tgrea t story. Nora died when I was 10 years old. I remember her very clearly. I would so love to have those conversations with her now, to ask her about tha t. As we often feel as adults about our grandparents, we wish we'd asked them more.
Lottie:Oh, well, I think everyone does, but particularly, you know, what, what was it like to start right at the top of your profession, norah? That would be a good start for 10, wouldn't it?
Alison:Yes, exactly. And she didn't, she hadn't ever had dancing lessons, but, you know, she must have just known the ropes because she w ould h ave spent so much time backstage observing her mother and her aunts practicing. Actually there is a, there is a Pathe news reel, a piece of footage of Aladdin at the London Palladium in 1927. And it's, you know, it's absolutely fascinating to watch. My dad thinks he's identified his mother in the c ast; b ut also to see the, the absolute ho ards o f dancers on stage, an d the size of the casts in the pantomimes in those days was, was just huge and a great, great source of employment for so many people.
Lottie:It was a huge thing, wasn't it? For the, the entertainment industries? I think ipanto could set you up for a year if you had a good one, couldn't it?
Alison:And, also provided, a place to live for a concerted period of time instead of packing up on a weekly basis. U m, so yeah, you were.... You stayed put.
Lottie:Because they used to run for much longer than they do now as well. Didn't they,
Alison:Right. They'd always start on Boxing Day and sometimes they'd go on until Easter, obviously that depends on when Easter fell, but often they could still be running well into March, end of March, beginning of April. So yeah, it was a great, it was a great source of income and stability for performance and actually in the same way that panto is today f or performers. Obviously, the seasons are shorter, but it still provides a good income and stability. We're seeing that at the moment, aren't we in the pandemic, how, you know, how dreadful it is that theaters have had to cancel their pantomime season, just because iit's such a great source of income for them.
Lottie:And it's the one thing that you're guaranteed to almost sell out if you don't totally set out every performance. And it's so many people's first experience of theater as well. So not actually being able to have pantos this year. I think it's, it's a real tragedy on, on so many levels.
Alison:It is, it absolutely. It really is. But I would, I would love to go back in time and see some of those pantos from the 1890s and the early 19 hundreds, the sort of huge lavish spectacles that we re p ut on at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane
Lottie:And is it true that they very rarely had a plot. I mean, the plots are thin these days, but I think they were even worse then, weren't they?
Alison:They used to go on for about four hours. And t hose are often when you read reviews of the, of the first night of some of those Boxing Day, pantos the critic, you know, makes a slightly pointed comment about missing the last train or, you know,"with a bit of trimming, it'll be great" sort of thing, but i t, but much like pantos today, the Music Hall performers were sort of parachuted in as a populist touch and they'd always sing their latest hits in the same way, you kn ow, that we see today. So undoubtedly, Da i sy, who was, who was actually in a panto at the The atre Royal Drury Lane,, she possibly got in a rendition of,"I Wouldn't Leave My Little Wooden Hut for You"
Lottie:I'm sure she did, but it would be foolish not to, that will be what the people came to listen to, wouldn't it? And did she do much international travel, Alison?
Alison:Yes. She, she toured in South Africa and Australia; she possibly, traveled in Europe. I need to research that a little bit more, but certainly there was a bit of interchange with Music Hall performers going to Berlin and Paris, where there was obviously an established scene for that type of performance. Daisy traveled to America in the 1920s, w it h Cicely Courtnedge who was a Music Hall and straight actress. And she had sort of sketch companies, but apparently it wasn't a success and Daisy didn't enjoy the experience. So that, that was the extent of her travel, but Larry and Violet went to Australia twice and they were very popular there and seem to...you know, there's certainly a lot written about them in the Australian press. It's incredible to, to read of their travels around Australia. I mean, you just wonder how they traveled the vast distances in 1907. And Violet was also eight months pregnant when she initially went to Australia and gave birth to the baby a few days after performing and then lost the baby and then was back on stage a couple of days after that. So...
Lottie:What a different way of life, completely
Alison:A completely different way of life. And you just think, how did one manage that,? you know, being heavily pregnant, but still having to go on and do your turn and then grieving and feeling grotty and just, you know, the show must go on
Lottie:And, and it had to because then no play, meant no pay, didn't it. I mean, they wouldn't have got paid if they'd taken the time off. And, and even that the journey as well, when you sort of say, go to Australia, it's a big enough undertaking now, with air travel, but they did it on the boats.
Alison:They did I mean a six to eight week journey by steamship! V iolet and Larry, traveled to Australia on two occasions. Yes, as you said, L ottie, a journey by ste amship fo r ab out six to eight weeks, not a journey to be undertaken lightly. And they stopped over in Gibraltar, Marseille, Naples, Egypt and Colombo in Sri Lanka, you know, which is incredible to think that, that my grandmother, great grandmother who grew up in a working class family in Portsmouth and was probably expected to go into service or to work in the dock s in Portsmouth, you know, ended up with this, you know, fantastically, diverse life experience, seeing all these different countries and, and tra veling like that.
Lottie:So despite it being such a hard life, it must've been a real adventure as well.
Alison:That's right. Yes. The adventure and excitement to balance out that y ou k now, those hardships. Yeah.
Lottie:They were obviously as successful overseas as they were in the UK.
Alison:Yes, I mean, I actually think they were, they were a little bit more successful in Australia than they were ultimately in this country. Although the problem with my great grandfather who got some fantastic reviews early in his career and was on the sort of Stoll circuit, which was, you know, viewed very well. But the problem was he liked a drop or two as did many, a Music Hall performer. And he got a reputation for being unreliable, which is, you know, was the death knell, particularly for people like Oswald Stoll who really didn't like that sort of thing at all, as you know, too, Lottie, so many, so many of the performers died young,, a n d you know, were raging alcoholics. But you know, it makes me think that there wasn't... I think they had to fill thei r tim e. They'd probably get to their... They'd get to the on the Sunday, they'd have a run t hro u gh on M o nd ay morning and then they might do a matinee on Monday for the local landladies. And then that night, possibly two shows. And I think a lot of time, a lot of filling in time was spent in the pub around the corner.
Lottie:Yeah. And if they were going sort of to do that in the olden days, they were doing three or four shows a night, sometimes five, it would probably be a little nip in the taxi on the way there just to keep you warm or for a little stiffener? And then as we all know, as performers, when you finish your show, when you're finished for the night, you're not ready to just have a coco a and go to bed, are you? So even if you're partying on your own, you want to wind down. So I suppose it's, it's easy to see how it happened and the places where one would meet fellow performers would be the theater bars a nd t he pubs up the road.
Alison:That's right. That's right. So Larry, Larry was dead at 42 and his sister Ray Maskell who was also on the Halls was dead at 45. So, you know, it took its toll.
Lottie:It certainly did. I was reading about the, my mate George Leybourne, the other day. Champagne, Charlie, who was another one who died young and had a bit of a drink problem. But his excuse was that he was sponsored by Moet et Chandon and wasn't allowed to drink anything else. So if he wasn't paying who can blame him,?
Alison:That's right. Quaffing a s he drove between his, his dates in the halls, sloshing it as he went.
Lottie:It's a lovely thought, isn't it, it's a real black and white movie scene.
Alison:I really love t hat sheet music illustration of George Leybourne as Champagne, Charlie. Do you know it? It's the one where he's got the strip ey trou sers on. It's often referenced and, you know, you get a real sense from that image of the sort of, you know, the West E nd d andy with his long whiskers and his fancy clothes.
Lottie:Talking about the sheet music, I mean, that's something that's obviously of interest to you because you look so much at all the art don't you?
Alison:I really love art and the history of art and actually, you know, and Music Hall, they are sort of my two passions, really. So, you know, obviously I really l ove the paintings of Walter Sickert who painted, yo u k n ow, he lived in the Islington area and painted the Old Bedford, which was just around the corner from where he lived and his, i ncredible portrait of Minnie Cunningham at the Old Bedford in her red dress. And then he also did a famous painting of Katie Lawr ence, who w as, fam o us for singing Daisy Bell. But what I like about him is that those two women, they weren't, they weren't top rank musical performers. They were the sor t o f hard working, more m inor performers but we still know them because of those paintings. So I liked t he fa ct that he was prepared to give some sort of paint time to, to, you know, the, the hard workers and the strugglers really. But I also find it really fascinating how snobbish people were about Sickert's paintings at the time, you know, they were called tawdry and vulgar, because t hey portrayed Music Hall and people, people weren't used to that they were used to seeing society ladies, um, in p o rtr aits and things. So, you know, now those paintings are looked at, you know, as, as marvelous subjects for art and, you know, by wonderful painter. But it's, really very interesting to read about how they you know, what shock and horror the art establishment felt at the time.
Lottie:I mean, I'm a real lay person on this, but would you say they're kind of evocative of the, Toulouse Lautrec stuff that was done at the Moulin Rouge?
Alison:Yes, absolutely. Definitely. And, and, you know Sickert knew Toulouse Lautrec and travelled to Paris at that time, met Degas and Toulouse Lautrec and yes, that famous, r ed poster that Toulouose Lautrec did, I think it was an Irish Music Hall performer called May Belmont, who was, who was successful in Paris. Um, it's very, very similar to Sickert's. Sickert came first, I'll a dd w i th his, May C unningham, at the Old Bedford. So yeah, it's very, it's very similar and evocative of that whole era.
Lottie:I think both of them were very interested in the, the real life aspects of what actually happened backstage. You know, when the lights are off, this is how tacky it really is, you know, everything's pinned together and not quite as clean as it might be, and the h ems are down and, and whatever. And s o,
Alison:And I think that's why the art establishment couldn't really take it. They didn't really like realism.
Lottie:If you think of all the famous pictures of the likes of Marie Lloyd, et cetera. Most of which are photos that I know, but she is dressed up as a society lady apart from if s he w as on stage and it's all terribly nice. And the same with Vesta Tilley and even my little Nelly Power,. There's this lovely one of Nel ly re ading a book, and you think that's a world way from, you know, the pic tures, o f La Golou and...
Alison:Miles away from the reality of the theatrical evening, I think.
Lottie:And do you take an interest in the, b ecause I think they are beautiful, the song sheets and sometimes, the posters and everything as well, because they're a w ork of art.
Alison:Oh, they are a work of art. I mean, the topography in the posters is amazing and the sheet music, you know,. I mean it's not su rprising t hat, you know, people collect sheet music covers; they are works of art themselves. It's a shame that quite a lot of them have become detached from the ir mu sic, o ve r the years. So, s o me people only have the front and not actually the, m usic and the song words, t o some quite rare songs. But anyway, yeah, they're beautiful and Alfred Concannon was the sort of leading sheet music illustrator, and he was a bit of a Champagne Char lie cha racter himself. He liked a drop, died young, lef t his wife for a young Music Hall, per f ormer. But yes, his, he was the person that drew the famous, Champ a gne, Charlie sheet, music cover. And he, produced some incredible sort of swell images, for all the performers of that era, for Arthur Lloyd, George Leybourne and the Great Vance GH Hunt was another one as well. And then later on you get some incredible sort of comic comic style drawing, um, from an i l lus trator called Banks, he illustrated Gus Elen's"If It Wasn't For the'Ouses In Between", which is an amazing drawing of, um,.......the h ou s es in between
Lottie:And that song has my favorite line of all time in it"with a ladder and some glasses you could see the Hackney marshes..." I love that.
Alison:Exactly. And there is the ladder on the, on the, on the sheet music. So, they're amazing. And of course the sheet music i llustrators, are, l argely forgotten,. The y were paid quite well at the time, often paid better than the song wri t er, wh ich is, you know, incredible to think of now. The song writer s got a really bad deal in Mus ic Hall. Many of them died in poverty and, you kno w, w rote away the rights to their songs for, you know, a couple of pennies, really. So yeah, the songwriters are another whole area of interesting research.
Lottie:And the whole field is just, I find it fascinating. I love that part of history. So lots to discover. And you write about Music Hall on a regular basis, don't you? So where can people find your stuff?
Alison:Oh, well, I write a blog on WordPress called Music Hall, Alice, which is where I write about my family and their connections to Music Hall and some other musical related subjects as well. I also write regularly for the Call Boy Journal, great name there for the British Music Hall Society's journal, and I tend to write on a variety of subjects. I've written about Mark Sheridan, the man who sang," do like to be beside the seaside" who, had a ve r y sad end, shot him s elf in a park in Glasgow; it was sad in response to a bad review, but sadly I think he had some complex mental health issues. And I've just recently written an article about Marie Lloyd f or the Call Boy. So my aim of course, is to, is to write a book, you know, ba se d on my family's experience of Music Hall a bit of a history of Music Hall using their experiences to tell the story, but anyway, we'll s ee how that goes. Maybe Lockdown will help with moving that on.
Lottie:Have you started?
Alison:I have started. I' ve started. That's something, isn't it.
Lottie:Well, we shall keep an eye out for that then. So how can everyone we've now converted to the love of Music Hall. how can they join the British Music Hall Society?
Alison:Oh, well, online,- there's a website, British Music Hall Society.com, u h, an d all the, f o rms are there to sign up, an d you can f oll ow us on Twitter and Facebook, whe r e, there's regular information on a Music Hall theme. So it's easy to do, easy to do very easy.
Lottie:And Music Hall Alice is the blog as well. So obviously Alison you, you've got lots in the family archives that you can look at, but where would you say you for people who aren't blessed in that way, that they could actually find more information about music hall if they wanted to discover more about the people we've been talking about today?
Alison:Well, there's a, few good books written on the subject. There was one written by Richard Anthony Baker,"British Music Hall", which is a really good sort of general introduction and guide to the, to the whole scene. And it covers song son gwriters a little bit about sheet music, illustrators pieces on all of the major performers. So that's interesting, John Major's book about his father who was, of course, a Music Hall performer,"My Old Man", is definitely worth a look too. But really a great resource is the British Newspaper Archive. And since the theatrical and other press has been digitized, it's totally sort of blowing this a rea of research open. You can just find out so much more, and it has actually rendered lots of books written about Music Hall, where they quote first appearances and last appearances, it's sort of blown them out of the water really. They're wrong. Because you know, the record as recorded in the Stage and the Era and the Music Hall and Theatre Review, another really helpful publication, you know has fo und them out, really. So that's a great place to, to start with your research into this area.
Lottie:They're online, obviously?
Alison:Yes, all online. There is a fee for the British Newspaper Archive, but I believe you can, have a tryout for a period of time for free.But in my view, it's worth every penny
Lottie:Super well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been absolutely fascinating. Now before you go, I'm not going to let you escape without answering the question we ask everybody: so you're having a dinner party and, well, your fantasy dinner party guest list is what I'm looking for. So obviously Daisy can come and her sisters can come. So normally we say six around the table, but I think that will be a family party for you. You can have another four, so we'll have the rul e of six on another table in their own bubble.
Alison:And do they have to be, dead the guests?
Lottie:No not at all, any, any time, alive or dead, any country, any era of history?
Alison:Yes. Okay. Right. Who am I going to pick? I think I will..... I would like to invite to my dream dinner party,..... Morten Haaket from Aha
Lottie:Ah those cheekbones!
Alison:Totally, totally. You know, away from Music Hall, but you know, a very long-standing teenage crush, so he has to come. I think I'd quite like Queen Victoria...
Lottie:She'd be fun.
Alison:Would she, though? That's what I quite like to know, whether she wouldn't be amused or whether she wouldn't be.
Lottie:Interesting to see what she'd make of Morten Haaket.
Alison:Interesting combination, isn't it? I think I'd also quite like Walter Sickert to come along. He could always do a bit of sketching if the compa ny was not to his liking. And I'd also like Laura Knigh t to po p along, a female artist, who s p ent a lot of time drawing circus and Mus ic Hall performers as well. I think she'd be very interesting. She was sort of painting in the 1920s, 1930s and later. So who have I g ot? I've got I've got Morten Haaket, Queen Victoria, Walter Sickert, Laura Knight, God! Wh at a combination! Oh and i think I'd like Max Wall to be there. Max Wall because of course there'd be a little bit of sort of family chat probably about,"Oh, do you remember, you know, when we lived in Brixton" and, you know, wi t h, with the fami ly group of six too that sounds perfect.
Lottie:And then you can flip between the two tables as hostess.
Alison:Exactly. I think it would be quite hard work as hostess actually.
Lottie:So do I! Can I c ome? I'll come and serve the drinks.
Alison:You can definitely come, Lottie
Lottie:Oh, thank you so much. It really has been lovely speaking to you today and good luck with the book. No excuse now we're going back into Lockdown. And I s hall look forward to dipping into the blog once again. Thanks Alison.
Alison:Thanks, Lottie.
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